Stargate Mail List turning Ugly.

I’ve watched with interest some of the exchanges lately on the Stargate e-group. Admittedly, the list is pro-CRV. So far as I know, that has been it’s focus since it’s inception. It’s the reason I’m subscribed to it.

And the last few days have certainly been ugly. Matrix’s original post was way over the top. She (Terri) is someone I’ve enjoyed many stimulating conversations with at different times, but sometimes she lets fly a little too violently with the rhetoric. "Winged Wolf" is new to the list (as far as I have noticed), and is having fun rattling some cages. His approach is more "general psionics", and he is trying very hard to make a case for general psychic functioning being "just like RV". It’s an argument of semantics, for the most part, and it’s juvenile. Methodology is methodology and protocol is protocol, and a duck is a duck.

In general, I find the Stargate e-group to be very stimulating, and valuable. I know of no-where else where one can expect to *daily* see postings from such a "who’s who" list of RV pioneers. When the topic of HRVG has come up on the list, I’ve noticed that the main RV gurus have been very respectful, and quite interested in learning more about the methodologies used here.

There aren’t huge restrictions placed on who can have posting rights on Stargate, and there are a lot of people lurking and periodically posting who really don’t know what they’re talking about. But frankly, I don’t tune in to hear the self-styled RV prophets rave. I want to hear intelligent discussion of aspects of RV, and I want to hear perspective from those who were pioneers in the field.

Some days I delete more Stargate messages than I read, but overall, subscribing has been very a very positive experience for me. Squalls come and go. I expect things will settle down again shortly, and the real discussions will continue. I would hate to see people toss out this valuable resource just because it seems a little sour lately. To be honest, there have been times when things have gotten a little tense on this board, too, but I have stuck it out because I value the insights I’ve gathered here.

Just my $0.02 worth.

-John Cook

Aloha John,

Having been in intelligence for 22 years has given me an amazing ability. That ability is sizing up an environment and assessing the threat associated with the terrain and the inhabitants. Stargate is a Hot LZ for any non-crv remote viewers.

Remote Viewing is a COMMUNICATION SKILL. It is not Majic. The myopic view of matrix and those that think like her are the reason that there is so much disharmony in the RV community. Two things bothered me more than her comments. The fact that the moderator took time to caution Wing’d W. and not matrix. The fact that the mainline CRV teachers did not intervene or comment.

That says far more than her comments as to the nature of the forum and the hazards awaiting those not of the CRV clan.

HRVG has from the onset published its’ work and tried to make inroads within the community to promote the exchange of information about this communication skill. It has been difficult. It is now more difficult because there is one less place for the free exchange of ideas and comments.

One less place for any real dialog to occur between the many people considering the impact of what RV is, how it works and why.

That is not the Stargate Steve tried to create.

Aloha Glenn

Hello Glenn and Everyone:

You hit the nail on the head on that one Glenn. I have just made comment on the Stargate Board… it seems in my opinion there seems to be an organized effort to create an incursion and distort the real facts of Remote Viewing?

I am willing to go on record that I think some unauthorized Scientologists and New Age Fanatics have entered in some way into the present civilian study of Remote Viewing so to re-write and/or re-interperate what Remote Viewing really is, so to introduce their belief systems(a form of Scientology Hybred)into Remote Viewing so to grab claim that early Remote Viewing came from L. Ron Hubbard/Scientology by creating an associatioin or tie with Swann, Putoff,and other former Scientology members that were originally part of the R&D of Remote Viewing?

This also applies to public individuals who have New Age Fanatic ties by who’s direction in learing "RV" is for the primary purpose of making $$$$ and to repackage their scams under a scientific buzz word such as Remote Viewing?

I sorry to say… but this nightmare is upon us, and many of the Original Civilian and Military Remote Viewers are beginning to stay more in the background and pull out of the public eye. I agree mostly with John’s POV as well? We could lose The Star Gate Board as a viable source of real "RV" exchange because of this growing problem.

If I am overstating this and myself then let me know, because I feel that this might be starting here at HRVG and other training sights as well? This I feel would be sad.

When I spoke at the "Awareness 2000" this past month in Los Angeles, I ran into a mixed crowd, and surprised at how much the public at large is still ignorant of what is really "Remote Viewing" and how they can be sucker’d into thinking they are "RVing", when in reality they doing nothing more than "Channeling, Astral Viewing, and/or virtual imagination, etc."

Some of the newer Remote Viewing groups that are cropping up lately are a good example of how out of scope they are and adding other techniques that don’t fall within the scope of "RV"?

Glenn… you know as much as I do that you can’t BS this and you varify much within the accepted scientific scope of the terminology "Remote Viewing" by your data. This may be the HRVG ace in the hole that keeps you valid, but all the effort could go bust if an organized attempt is made to discredit HRVG and you? I think this is what’s going on to undermind CRV/Lyn Buchanan and other RV Professionals to say nothing and/or walk away and surrender the StarGate Board and other sites to become useless places of RV dribble and speculation babble.

In 1970’s Gloria Thomkin predicted a concern to me that the Professionals and Wannabes would go head to head sometime in the future (nineties) regarding what we were doing… and it would get ugly. Well… for what ever good merit "Our Reputations Speak For Ourselves" If anyone has tried to directly or indirectly undermind or playdown any Civilian/Military participant in their professional experience with Remote Viewing, all our original data backs us up… and we don’t have is in "The RV Collective" when you are truly RVing.

Glenn… From one professional to another, I have nothing to lose because I know where I stand, and I am at this time asking for additional information and support from my original Agency sponsor after submitting a second FOI request on my present stats. I hope that you and some of the HRVG members understand my serious and supportive POV regarding RV and continued R&D on the subject at hand. If anyone here has any Pro or Cons of what I have wrote here, I like it posted in our faces and not behind our backs?

With Good Intentions Always:

AL (A.Edward Moch)

PS: have a nice Halloween everyone.

Aloha John,

Having been in intelligence for 22 years has given me an amazing ability. That ability is sizing up an environment and assessing the threat associated with the terrain and the inhabitants. Stargate is a Hot LZ for any non-crv remote viewers.

Remote Viewing is a COMMUNICATION SKILL. It is not Majic. The myopic view of matrix and those that think like her are the reason that there is so much disharmony in the RV community. Two things bothered me more than her comments. The fact that the moderator took time to caution Wing’d W. and not matrix. The fact that the mainline CRV teachers did not intervene or comment.

That says far more than her comments as to the nature of the forum and the hazards awaiting those not of the CRV clan.

HRVG has from the onset published its’ work and tried to make inroads within the community to promote the exchange of information about this communication skill. It has been difficult. It is now more difficult because there is one less place for the free exchange of ideas and comments.

One less place for any real dialog to occur between the many people considering the impact of what RV is, how it works and why.

That is not the Stargate Steve tried to create.

Aloha Glenn

>

Aloha Al,

The biggest problem in the Remote Viewing community is the simple fact that most do not know what Remote Viewing really is. It has been almost 5 years since declassification and there is no credible body providing steerage within the civilian community for RV efforts. Most are caught up in the romantic aspects of the promise of just those two words … Remote Viewing.

It’s kinda like a wagon train in the old west heading to California. Along the way the Indians line up by the trail to ambush the train. Along the way the weaker meeker of the train get nervous and fearful. Along the way leadership is challenged. Along the way people want to take the left trail despite the signs to the obvious. At some point along the way people are forced to share and support each other because if they do not they are all pretty much lost. They get there only after they learn to focus on where they are and where they are going. They get there only after they learn to pull together. When they get there they are all a bit different.

Its’ been 5 years since declassification. Everywhere you look you see the buzzwords "Remote Viewing". But the truth of the matter is that there is very little "Remote Viewing" to see.

*Where are the sessions demonstrating the skill?

*Where are the published articles on data collected via remote viewing?

*Where is the peer review on analysis of session work?

*Where is the analysis?

*Why isn’t James Randi living in Section 8 housing subsisting on food stamps and digging in the garbage for leftovers?

*Where’s the Beef?

The answer is simple.

The civilian RV community is a house of cards. It has turned into the Donner Party of wagon trains. Unless it gets up and moves on down the road the carpetbaggers and snake-oil masters who are like the jackals of the veldt will corrupt it beyond repair.

It’s too much about fame and fortune then it is about Remote Viewing. When you speak to the masses use the buzzword but never, ever, show them any real remote viewing. That will empower the people and threaten your position at the top.

When I began training the Guild viewers we all entered into an agreement. In exchange for training we would agree to work together on targets of common interest. That was my deal. One Remote Viewer isn’t worth a hill of beans when you understand what can actually be accomplished with remote viewing. You must have a team of viewers. You must have good monitors. You must have good analysts. You must have good management. You must have Chain of Custody on all data. You must have automated systems to manage data. You must be able to assemble RV Product. One viewer can amaze you with their work, but a team of viewers can astound the world.

We have trained Viewers; their work is published here.

We have trained analysts; their work is published here.
If Kapitan Man didn’t amaze you, the product on Yamantau Mountain surely will. If the Yamantau Mountain product doesn’t amaze you then product on Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan will squeeze you heart. If you get through the Earhart product without a tear then you are one heartless bastard.

HRVG will hold its’ course. We will continue to organize, remote view, and publish as detailed a product as we are able to demonstrate the skill. The upcoming release of the Yamantau Mountain product will demonstrate a new level of intelligence grade collection that has not been seen outside the confines of government period.

To those like Matrix who claim a legacy from someone with no name or track record…well she is already a legend in her own mind. All without every having to Remote View. Just another arrow inbound from beyond the trees. I am sick and tired of hearing people tell me this or tell me that. I don’t care who you are, but I do care about "what you are". You either push, pull, or get out of the way.

Too many of the loud angry voices within the community base their right to smite on their association with some other persons name rather than their experience or accomplishments in the RV field. We get our voice the old fashioned way…we remote view.

HRVG is solid gold. We will be here when the others fall behind because we are committed. We believe.

AL sorry to get on my soap box but I think it’s safe to say that HRVG will continue despite the clamor from the bush. I hope at some point in time they all get their act together and snap out of the money fog they are all in. God, once I had the viewers trained, my only thought was ..ok time to make some analysts…then it was on to product. It’s the recipe for assembling a group of men and women who can make a difference. We are the ones who will.

Aloha Glenn

Glenn:

Hi again. I don’t want to prolong this, for a couple of reasons. First is that I don’t think we’re going to convince each other about the value or lack thereof of the Stargate list, and second because I do value the resource I have found here at HRVG, and do not want to generate hard feelings here by my raving on and on.

That said, just a few comments on your reply:

Two things bothered me more than her [Matrix’s] comments. The fact that the moderator took time to caution Wing’d W. and not matrix. The fact that the mainline CRV teachers did not intervene or comment.

I agree that that was inappropriate. The moderator should have taken Matrix to task as well. I was disappointed also that such an incorrect statement went unchallenged by the gurus.

That says far more than her comments as to the nature of the forum and the hazards awaiting those not of the CRV clan.

She’s actually an ERV-type. She was trained by Skip Atwater. She’s a darn good viewer, from the examples I’ve seen. That said, she frequently doesn’t know how to temper her evangelistic zeal. This particular example was way over the top, and I’ll not bother trying to defend her conduct.

One less place for any real dialog to occur between the many people considering the impact of what RV is, how it works and why.

I have to disagree. It’s only "one less place" if we exclude ourselves from it. I repeat what I said before: I don’t know of ANY other resource currently available to the public where one can brush up against and actually have direct interaction with so many of the field’s key figures. Where else can I go & get that?

That is not the Stargate Steve tried to create.

I don’t know. Steve left the list shortly after I arrived. Honestly, I’m just glad that someone else has been willing to do the moderation, even if I don’t always agree with the decisions that are made.

Al made some interesting points on this thread about the possibility of an organized effort to fragment the RV community. If there is, I can think of a few prominent RVers that are likely on the payroll. In any case, we need to make sure we’re not being manipulated into being unwitting agents of such a conspiracy.

Respectfully,

-John C

Dear Glenn:

Thank you… are we part of the Donner party ready to eat and/or be eaten even by our own RV collegues to survive…or are we all riding shotgun with a fast team on a Butterfield & Butterfield stagecoach with the gold shipment in safe keeping from the indians }:-)…

I don’t see myself standing alone at the top nor turning my tail regarding this problem, nor you likewise? Standing our ground by the data that has been collected over the years supports not only us, but also those that have remained realistic.

I don’t teach, and I rarely do public lectures on "RV" at this time because of the trashing that is going on out there in romantic "RV" World, and I have been careful not to reveal too much to the wrong parties. The little I have shown have made some waves, and I enjoy being a team member. I don’t wish to stand out nor be any king of the hill?

Just giving a simple lecture at the Awareness 2000 Expo was experience enough (Morehouse was originally going to do a lecture and seminar?)… the public understood the buzz word "Remote Viewing" all right… but to most of them you think I was speaking Chinese? Sorry our planned getting together in Hawaii didn’t work out last month… I think the exchange could of done us all some good?

You are right, it is sad after 5 years, how ignorant the general public are still without a clue and how some so-called RV students from esoteric ends think they know it all.

My concern is not to see a negative backwash happen with the public and "RV" turning into a laughing stock when it comes to legitimate funding of present and future R&D from the civilian end. I hate to see the baby being thrown out with the bathwater in spite the good effort?

So I think we are sharing a stage and not our own seperate soap box? I also think John’s posting has much to explain… so I think we are pretty much in sinc and not alone in our own thoughts?

As Always’

Al (A.Edward Moch)

Aloha Al,

The biggest problem in the Remote Viewing community is the simple fact that most do not know what Remote Viewing really is. It has been almost 5 years since declassification and there is no credible body providing steerage within the civilian community for RV efforts. Most are caught up in the romantic aspects of the promise of just those two words … Remote Viewing.

It’s kinda like a wagon train in the old west heading to California. Along the way the Indians line up by the trail to ambush the train. Along the way the weaker meeker of the train get nervous and fearful. Along the way leadership is challenged. Along the way people want to take the left trail despite the signs to the obvious. At some point along the way people are forced to share and support each other because if they do not they are all pretty much lost. They get there only after they learn to focus on where they are and where they are going. They get there only after they learn to pull together. When they get there they are all a bit different.

Its’ been 5 years since declassification. Everywhere you look you see the buzzwords "Remote Viewing". But the truth of the matter is that there is very little "Remote Viewing" to see.

*Where are the sessions demonstrating the skill?

*Where are the published articles on data collected via remote viewing?

*Where is the peer review on analysis of session work?

*Where is the analysis?

*Why isn’t James Randi living in Section 8 housing subsisting on food stamps and digging in the garbage for leftovers?

*Where’s the Beef?

The answer is simple.

The civilian RV community is a house of cards. It has turned into the Donner Party of wagon trains. Unless it gets up and moves on down the road the carpetbaggers and snake-oil masters who are like the jackals of the veldt will corrupt it beyond repair.

It’s too much about fame and fortune then it is about Remote Viewing. When you speak to the masses use the buzzword but never, ever, show them any real remote viewing. That will empower the people and threaten your position at the top.

When I began training the Guild viewers we all entered into an agreement. In exchange for training we would agree to work together on targets of common interest. That was my deal. One Remote Viewer isn’t worth a hill of beans when you understand what can actually be accomplished with remote viewing. You must have a team of viewers. You must have good monitors. You must have good analysts. You must have good management. You must have Chain of Custody on all data. You must have automated systems to manage data. You must be able to assemble RV Product. One viewer can amaze you with their work, but a team of viewers can astound the world.

We have trained Viewers; their work is published here. We have trained analysts; their work is published here. If Kapitan Man didn’t amaze you, the product on Yamantau Mountain surely will. If the Yamantau Mountain product doesn’t amaze you then product on Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan will squeeze you heart. If you get through the Earhart product without a tear then you are one heartless bastard.

HRVG will hold its’ course. We will continue to organize, remote view, and publish as detailed a product as we are able to demonstrate the skill. The upcoming release of the Yamantau Mountain product will demonstrate a new level of intelligence grade collection that has not been seen outside the confines of government period.

To those like Matrix who claim a legacy from someone with no name or track record…well she is already a legend in her own mind. All without every having to Remote View. Just another arrow inbound from beyond the trees. I am sick and tired of hearing people tell me this or tell me that. I don’t care who you are, but I do care about "what you are". You either push, pull, or get out of the way.

Too many of the loud angry voices within the community base their right to smite on their association with some other persons name rather than their experience or accomplishments in the RV field. We get our voice the old fashioned way…we remote view.

HRVG is solid gold. We will be here when the others fall behind because we are committed. We believe.

AL sorry to get on my soap box but I think it’s safe to say that HRVG will continue despite the clamor from the bush. I hope at some point in time they all get their act together and snap out of the money fog they are all in. God, once I had the viewers trained, my only thought was ..ok time to make some analysts…then it was on to product. It’s the recipe for assembling a group of men and women who can make a difference. We are the ones who will.

Aloha Glenn

>

Dear John:

Your advice is noted. I have noticed a number of "RV" boards shutting down and/or going on the deep end? I feel that something is going on, but to what extent… I don’t know? Can you extend your feelings about this for us?

Glenn: Hi again. I don’t want to prolong this, for a couple of reasons. First is that I don’t think we’re going to convince each other about the value or lack thereof of the Stargate list, and second because I do value the resource I have found here at HRVG, and do not want to generate hard feelings here by my raving on and on.

That said, just a few comments on your reply:

I agree that that was inappropriate. The moderator should have taken Matrix to task as well. I was disappointed also that such an incorrect statement went unchallenged by the gurus.

She’s actually an ERV-type. She was trained by Skip Atwater. She’s a darn good viewer, from the examples I’ve seen. That said, she frequently doesn’t know how to temper her evangelistic zeal. This particular example was way over the top, and I’ll not bother trying to defend her conduct.

I have to disagree. It’s only "one less place" if we exclude ourselves from it. I repeat what I said before: I don’t know of ANY other resource currently available to the public where one can brush up against and actually have direct interaction with so many of the field’s key figures. Where else can I go & get that?

I don’t know. Steve left the list shortly after I arrived. Honestly, I’m just glad that someone else has been willing to do the moderation, even if I don’t always agree with the decisions that are made.

Al made some interesting points on this thread about the possibility of an organized effort to fragment the RV community. If there is, I can think of a few prominent RVers that are likely on the payroll. In any case, we need to make sure we’re not being manipulated into being unwitting agents of such a conspiracy. Respectfully,

-John C

Your advice is noted. I have noticed a number of "RV" boards shutting down and/or going on the deep end? I feel that something is going on, but to what extent… I don’t know? Can you extend your feelings about this for us?

Al:

As one example, I have always found it very interesting that Ed Dames (Oh brother, I hope I don’t start another Ed Dames thread… I don’t even bother to read those) is known to have gone into a special "disinformation" intelligence unit after his days with the RV unit. It strikes me as suspicious that he then "went public" and became one of the most outspoken members of the RV community… and specifically, one of the community’s greatest liabilities. Ed publically gave away a number of then-still-classified details of the program before 1995, apparently without any sort of intervention from the gov’t.

Does the gov’t need such disinformation officers re: RV? If they’re still using it they would, with the way they apparently "abandoned" the program in ’95. I noticed an interesting post on Stargate the other day about Whitley Strieber’s (I know… I know) recent RV training with Lyn Buchanan. Apparently, Mr. Strieber said on a national radio show the other night that all of his RV-classmates at Lyn’s were DEA agents! I found it interesting how quickly that message thread died, with no substantive comments from the pros. Go figure.

The fragmentation of the RV community *CANNOT* be a good thing. There’s an argument that isolationism can breed pockets of "pure" RV, but the infighting which accompanies such processes more often than not cripples the organization where it is going on.

A quote of a former theology prof of mine seems appropriate:

"When you turn on a light in a dark room, all manner of bugs will swarm the bulb. The solution is NOT to turn off the light, but to get a flyswatter."

-John

Aloha John,

I commend your efforts in being part of a solution instead of part of a problem. The Dilemma is more complex than you might imagine. We have endeavored to establish some type of relationship with the different players in the RV field for education, training and exchanges of ideas and data. It has been very difficult. We have done an enormous amount of training, organizing, and working to establish a foothold of credibility as remote viewers. Most of the viewers at HRVG are conversant in several methods of RV.

Its not like every member doesn’t have access to the CRV manual, hasn’t been exposed to the TRV training, hasn’t had the opportunity to attend Prudence Calabrese’s workshop, don’t correspond with other remote viewers, don’t have access to training materials from Farsight and the Western Institute. They do.

We encourage all members of the Guild to explore and investigate and learn.

The dilemma is one of silence. If you must subjugate what you are and what you do to gain acceptance by others then the price is too high.

Perhaps things will change.

Aloha Glenn

Glenn:

I don’t really consider any RV methodology to be perfect. There’s something that can be learned from all approaches. I know you share this belief… and I also think you’re correct in believing that there are those on Stargate who would consider such a statement to be offensive & worthy of attack.

It *is* too bad. I think the field of RV is at a crossroads of some sort. I’m not even sure what the available choices for direction are at this point. I just hope it winds up being constructive.

Best Regards,

-John Cook

Aloha Glenn and others in HRVG,

I offered several workshops over the past year to HRVG members. Only two people signed up each time. Everyone else thought it was a great idea, but they didn’t have time/inclination/money/whathaveyou. Each time I tried to set up a workshop my attempts failed. One time a couple of ex-HRVG members tried successfully to sabotage the workshop – however, only two folks signed up, so it would have been cancelled anyway. Glenn, you didn’t set an example for your group – YOU never signed up for any of the workshops either. It makes no sense to say that you are encouraging an open exchange when you haven’t bothered to learn other methodologies yourself.

So it is not fair to cry "NO ONE IS LISTENING TO US" when HRVG isn’t participating in the projects set up. (It also is not a valid position statement to insinuate that those who have charged for expertise and training in RV are charlatans. This is America, not a communist state, and information is valuable and a commodity, and people should be paid what they are worth as well as for their time. Or are you advocating a more socialist society??)

For the record, my business and my RV group have encouraged HRVG members to continue their practice with HRVG. I have invited members of HRVG to train at advanced levels within my group (for free), and have encourage those who have taken me up on the offer to offer my brand of training free to other HRVG members. I have appointed HRVG personell to the very top rankings of my private group, and have told them that they were expected to continue their relationship with HRVG, that it was not considered a threat or a conflict of interest. At this point I am no longer offering public training, and my group has gone "underground" in order to keep out of the public light and out of the RV wars.

It’s a two way street, Glenn. Some of your people have slammed TDS’s projects and approach on other bulletin boards and egroups lists, yet they have not taken the time to find out what we (and others) were doing and they did not bother to take the training offered. They touted the greatness of HRVG and insinuated that other methods of RV were not as good. How in the world does that promote bridge building?? It doesn’t work that way. It sets up barriers, fast and strong, and you end up having to work twice as hard to break them down.

Everything is a position statement on those egroups list. Everyone wants their say, and everyone wants to show that they know more or are more, or have the best their is to offer. I see precious little give and take – precious little "hey I enjoyed your report, can you tell me more about XYZ?"

You make inroads by submitting yourself to the process and being a student of others. You can then understand their positions and then make intelligent comments on their methodology, and then they will have more respect for YOU because you bothered to learn about THEM.

Ya’ll want the RV world to recognize HRVG. Ya’ll want it to be easy. But it can’t be. You have to show them that you are as willing to learn about them and what they do as you want them to be to learn about you and what you do.

That’s how it works. And for the record, I had to learn it the hard way.

My two cents worth,

Prudence Calabrese

Aloha Prudence,

Perhaps you have read something into my posts that was not there. You are incorrect as to the number of Guild members who attended your class. As I recall there was Y, L, A, R, and Jedi. R has since gone on to do advanced training with you recently. Dick as you know is a graduate of Farsight also. You are always welcome in the Islands Miss Pru. We were disappointed with the cancellation of your last trip out.

Most of my posts contain a message. Something I feel needs to be said. My recent posts about the Stargate Mail List are geared towards some insavory attitudes there and not about any plight of HRVG. We have always been open to exchanges but are well prepared to stand alone. Our website does a good job of exemplifying our position. This thread is not about HRVG, its about something that needs to be said.

Aloha Glenn

Aloha Glenn and others in HRVG,

I offered several workshops over the past year to HRVG members. Only two people signed up each time. Everyone else thought it was a great idea, but they didn’t have time/inclination/money/whathaveyou. Each time I tried to set up a workshop my attempts failed. One time a couple of ex-HRVG members tried successfully to sabotage the workshop – however, only two folks signed up, so it would have been cancelled anyway. Glenn, you didn’t set an example for your group – YOU never signed up for any of the workshops either. It makes no sense to say that you are encouraging an open exchange when you haven’t bothered to learn other methodologies yourself.

So it is not fair to cry "NO ONE IS LISTENING TO US" when HRVG isn’t participating in the projects set up. (It also is not a valid position statement to insinuate that those who have charged for expertise and training in RV are charlatans. This is America, not a communist state, and information is valuable and a commodity, and people should be paid what they are worth as well as for their time. Or are you advocating a more socialist society??)

For the record, my business and my RV group have encouraged HRVG members to continue their practice with HRVG. I have invited members of HRVG to train at advanced levels within my group (for free), and have encourage those who have taken me up on the offer to offer my brand of training free to other HRVG members. I have appointed HRVG personell to the very top rankings of my private group, and have told them that they were expected to continue their relationship with HRVG, that it was not considered a threat or a conflict of interest. At this point I am no longer offering public training, and my group has gone "underground" in order to keep out of the public light and out of the RV wars.

It’s a two way street, Glenn. Some of your people have slammed TDS’s projects and approach on other bulletin boards and egroups lists, yet they have not taken the time to find out what we (and others) were doing and they did not bother to take the training offered. They touted the greatness of HRVG and insinuated that other methods of RV were not as good. How in the world does that promote bridge building?? It doesn’t work that way. It sets up barriers, fast and strong, and you end up having to work twice as hard to break them down.

Everything is a position statement on those egroups list. Everyone wants their say, and everyone wants to show that they know more or are more, or have the best their is to offer. I see precious little give and take – precious little "hey I enjoyed your report, can you tell me more about XYZ?"

You make inroads by submitting yourself to the process and being a student of others. You can then understand their positions and then make intelligent comments on their methodology, and then they will have more respect for YOU because you bothered to learn about THEM.

Ya’ll want the RV world to recognize HRVG. Ya’ll want it to be easy. But it can’t be. You have to show them that you are as willing to learn about them and what they do as you want them to be to learn about you and what you do.

That’s how it works. And for the record, I had to learn it the hard way.

My two cents worth,

Prudence Calabrese

Miss Pru, I forgot to put in my post above that you have been a very good friend to the Guild. Yourself and your organization. You have our gratitude and we do look forward to a continued relationship.

My personal best to you.
ALoha Glenn

Hi all,

ALL e-mail groups, forums and BBs turn ugly from time to time and deviate from the original goals and guidelines. The very first discussion group I joined

was about auto racing and went through the same cycles of visiting dissidents, experts, troublemakers and bewildered. The Stargate list has not been any different and has only been typical.

We all bring our viewpoints, prejudices, baggage,

credibility, incredibility, abilities and inabilities.

Glenn, I think that if you decide to walk off it would be a Psi-Tech in reverse because you are the only source of the HRVG version of RV. Whatever was declassified did not include what you were in (as well as Al’s) and so far no one has been able to unearth it independently and no others from your group have gone public.

AND IN THIS RING……….another soapbox Its’ been 5 years since declassification. Everywhere you look you see the buzzwords "Remote Viewing". But the truth of the matter is that there is very little "Remote Viewing" to see.

*Where are the sessions demonstrating the skill?

*Where are the published articles on data collected via remote viewing?

*Where is the peer review on analysis of session work?

*Where is the analysis?

*Why isn’t James Randi living in Section 8 housing subsisting on food stamps and digging in the garbage for leftovers?

*Where’s the Beef?

I couldn’t agree more. I have called for samples and examples since the inception of the lists with little results. I have received some student/amateur samples

privately but the "professionals" do not step up to the plate, nor do most students, especially those who declare their incredible talents.
This site is a valued exception but…. the professionals referred to above unfortunately include you and Al. I for one would like to see your work too.

In the end, no matter how many showpiece demonstrations

are presented anywhere, the question will be asked: What practical use has it been put to? Well, it seems that the standard answer is: Its proprietary or secrete.

Well, so… can you predict the stock market or the super bowl winner or the next president or the next earth quake ????

Gee, son, don’t you listen to Ed Dames on Art Bell?

:)

Rich

Hello Rich:

Though Glenn and I come from different ends of the R&D of Remote Viewing, I think we both get kind of frazzled sometimes because of the discord in the RV community that we have faced. Our attempts to varify past/present and build on future data and stay within the scientific scope is still a challenge, not so much from what we have collected… but from the breakdown of one RV group to open dialog with another…

Hi all,

ALL e-mail groups, forums and BBs turn ugly from time to time and deviate from the original goals and guidelines. The very first discussion group I joined was about auto racing and went through the same cycles of visiting dissidents, experts, troublemakers and bewildered. The Stargate list has not been any different and has only been typical.

… the Stargate site I find is a tough and inclusive site, and they do go back and forth on issues of RV that at times you think you have made some inroads… but if a select few don’t want to ignore you, they sure make it difficult to exchange additional RV information that don’t come from their military or CRV circles? I have talked to Lyn Buchanan face to face almost a year ago in the attempt to open dialog… and still Mr. Buchanan remains mute?

We all bring our viewpoints, prejudices, baggage, credibility, incredibility, abilities and inabilities.

… I profess I have my good and bad points, heck I’m human }:-)…

Glenn, I think that if you decide to walk off it would be a Psi-Tech in reverse because you are the only source of the HRVG version of RV. Whatever was declassified did not include what you were in (as well as Al’s) and so far no one has been able to unearth it independently and no others from your group have gone public.

…good point, this is why I have submitted a "Second FOI Request" and wait for an additional responce from my original Agency sponsor, not only for myself… but also additional data that can be helpful for us all in filling some the gaps that could be deemed as historical?

AND IN THIS RING……….another soapbox

… }:-)

I couldn’t agree more. I have called for samples and examples since the inception of the lists with little results. I have received some student/amateur samples privately but the "professionals" do not step up to the plate, nor do most students, especially those who declare their incredible talents. This site is a valued exception but…. the professionals referred to above unfortunately include you and Al. I for one would like to see your work too.

… though I am not under any state or oath of secrecy at this time, in all due respect what my part in all this may effect those that are? As a civilian, my scope of RV knowledge does have a defined limit…

In the end, no matter how many showpiece demonstrations are presented anywhere, the question will be asked: What practical use has it been put to? Well, it seems that the standard answer is: Its proprietary or secrete.

… No. there have been some domestic modified RV applications that are in use, but are non-known to the public at large?

Well, so… can you predict the stock market or the super bowl winner or the next president or the next earth quake ????

… In psychical ends yes, in RVing not really???

Gee, son, don’t you listen to Ed Dames on Art Bell?

:)

Rich

… thanks for your advice and feedback

With Good Intentions,

Al (A. Edward Moch)

OOPs I almost forgot Our Own Miss Cookie aka (Valerie) was also in your class Miss Pru. That’s 6 by my count.
Sorry Cookie I didn’t mean to forget you.
Alohas all.
Glenn

And as you know Pru, Richard D. has also repeatedly told you that he is interested to sign up whenever you come out, and he has also contacted you privately about that as well. (I apologize for speaking on his behalf, but I don’t think he has seen this thread yet)

This is a small island, here, 3 is a crowd and 7 is a blockbuster.

Aloha,

Jim

P.S. I’d love to take your class, but I am broke :(

OOPs I almost forgot Our Own Miss Cookie aka (Valerie) was also in your class Miss Pru. That’s 6 by my count. Sorry Cookie I didn’t mean to forget you. Alohas all. Glenn

Aloha Pru!

A lack of attendance doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of interest or respect for your teachings.

As much as we all are interested in learning other RV methodologies, the hard facts of life, namely time, money, work, still dictate whether or not that is feasible. I for one manage a Kitchen and Bath Design Studio and am responsible for generating $1000 per day (X 30 days)each and every month of the year to pay for our overhead alone. So for every day that I take off work, it costs me $1000 in addition to the cost of the workshop. That ain’t small change. So, it takes a lot of planning ahead and resources for me to take a three or five day workshop! And I am also aware of several other Guild members, including top administration, who are in a similar situation.

Also, I remember sitting in on a half a day of your first workshop and the classroom was filled with people. I recall that 7 of them were HRVGers…so I am not sure what your argument is here. The two failed attempts had nothing to do with HRVG.

It is difficult, as we have found with other RV instructors wishing to come to Hawaii to give workshops, to coordinate everyone’s time and resources to bring it all to fruition. And if the HRVG group were to rearrange their lives for every RV pro wanting to teach in Hawaii, we would have to take leaves of absence and go into major debt to accommodate everyone.

We look to the various websites and egroups for information about the other schools of RV and to have a fair exchange of ideas and knowledge. HRVG openly invites others to participate on our site and only wish to have that respect reciprocated by others.

Peace, Prudence…hope you are doing well! I look forward to the time when all the factors align themselves so I can participate in one of your workshops. Aloha, Valtra aka Mana

LOL Glenn, I just came on to Post the same info. about Valerie.

Being an advanced student in HRVG, I chose, and was greatful to attend, Miss Pru’s advanced TDS training. I am honored that she saw fit to put me into a leadership postion in her group.
Glenn has always encouraged us to learn all we can, every RV method. He had us download RV training manuals and made RV tapes from other groups available to us. He publishes RV hits from any method that warrents, by congurency to target, publication. I have not seen HRVG hits published anywhere except on the HRVG site.
I am one for walking my talk, to the best of my human ability. If our aim is for reputable RV groups to work together then we work together, put our own butt in the fray. I SAY LET’S WORK TOGETHER! I hope I lead by example.
Whether our teachers learn each others methods is totally up to them.
I want to be the best RVer I can be. That’s what Glenn wants for me, and Pru wants for me. I will do my best.
Not only does my loyalty remains undivided, it remains intact. Which is more tasty, the ice cream or the whipped cream on top?

Peace and Love all ya’ll

Banshee

Aloha Pru!

A lack of attendance doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of interest or respect for your teachings.

As much as we all are interested in learning other RV methodologies, the hard facts of life, namely time, money, work, still dictate whether or not that is feasible. I for one manage a Kitchen and Bath Design Studio and am responsible for generating $1000 per day (X 30 days)each and every month of the year to pay for our overhead alone. So for every day that I take off work, it costs me $1000 in addition to the cost of the workshop. That ain’t small change. So, it takes a lot of planning ahead and resources for me to take a three or five day workshop! And I am also aware of several other Guild members, including top administration, who are in a similar situation.

Also, I remember sitting in on a half a day of your first workshop and the classroom was filled with people. I recall that 7 of them were HRVGers…so I am not sure what your argument is here. The two failed attempts had nothing to do with HRVG.

It is difficult, as we have found with other RV instructors wishing to come to Hawaii to give workshops, to coordinate everyone’s time and resources to bring it all to fruition. And if the HRVG group were to rearrange their lives for every RV pro wanting to teach in Hawaii, we would have to take leaves of absence and go into major debt to accommodate everyone.

We look to the various websites and egroups for information about the other schools of RV and to have a fair exchange of ideas and knowledge. HRVG openly invites others to participate on our site and only wish to have that respect reciprocated by others.

Peace, Prudence…hope you are doing well! I look forward to the time when all the factors align themselves so I can participate in one of your workshops. Aloha, Valtra aka Mana

Aloha Rich,

One of the things that have bugged me along the way was the lack any presentation of RV to illustrate how the skill could be focused on a single target. Especially since everyone knows how to do this, hell we all came from Military Intelligence.

We initially began to present the Jigg Targets from jigg 1 and 2 so that folks could get an idea of what happens to the data when an analyst gets it and has to make sense from it. The jigg targets on this site are some very good examples of the "Gleaning" process.

The Jigg targets will continue but we have moved a bit further by developing an all-source compilation of how an Intelligence agency would assemble and present the data in a command style briefing format. Basically if the commander said Sgt. Wheaton tell me what we know about this target. I would be expected to know my data and all other collateral data associated with the target. I would speak for perhaps 45 minutes to 1 hour about what we know about the target in some profound order of priority but be prepared to speak for 2 hours and be able to field any and all questions quickly, accurately, and tactfully but frankly.

We have two such projects on the eve of publication. The first a Science/Intelligence target. The second a Human Interest target. In the second project there are two sessions contributed by yours truly. You should find these interesting.

These projects will demonstrate the value of RV data and its’ relationship to filling in the blanks of the collateral data.

It is important to always remember that no data from a single discipline should be considered Gospel. You must all-source data whenever possible.

That is a well known Intelligence fact, a lot of folks have forgotten it.

Intelligence Grade collection/analysis/reporting is the premier application of the RV process. It is RV at its apex.

Aloha Glenn

Aloha Prudence,

Perhaps I should have read your post more carefully. The class I am thinking of was last year not this year.

MY mistake Prudence.
ALoha Glenn

Glenn:

Just FYI, the Stargate list moderator just did a response to Matrix’s original posting.

-John

Hmm.

No, I take that back. I’m not sure what she is replying to.

-J

Glenn:

OK… I suppose I should have just read all my stargate mail before FYIing you. Things are still brewing over there, and I wish I hadn’t pointed that out. :-)

Dang… where’s that BB delete button? :-)

-John

I was talking about the actual basic training, which is quite different than a small intro workshop. Those that came only got a taste, and I was hoping to offer the full training to HRVG members. But that is all water under the bridge.

Sometimes when you post those US against THEM kinds of posts it seems like you are lumping all RVers together, especially when there are remarks about those who get paid being charlatans. You have to understand that people who watch this board and others don’t know the behind the scenes material – they don’t know that we have shared information etc. They only see you telling the world that only HRVG has been open minded, and it’s easy to draw wrong conclusions from that, don’t you think?

Pru

OOPs I almost forgot Our Own Miss Cookie aka (Valerie) was also in your class Miss Pru. That’s 6 by my count. Sorry Cookie I didn’t mean to forget you. Alohas all. Glenn

and he said he was interested, but I guess he wasn’t able to actually do it as he never sent in registration forms and stuff. I know that it is hard to rearrange your life – that isn’t my gripe. I was mostly concerned that Glenn was saying that no one takes HRVG seriously and I didn’t feel that was accurate.

P.

And as you know Pru, Richard D. has also repeatedly told you that he is interested to sign up whenever you come out, and he has also contacted you privately about that as well. (I apologize for speaking on his behalf, but I don’t think he has seen this thread yet) This is a small island, here, 3 is a crowd and 7 is a blockbuster.

Aloha, Jim

P.S. I’d love to take your class, but I am broke :(

Hi Valtra

I know that time and money are serious issues for everyone. That’s why I offered to teach the full basic training for my expenses only.

I was mostly taking exception to the pay teacher/chartlatan statements and the statements that no one was taking HRVG seriously.

Pru

Aloha Pru!

A lack of attendance doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of interest or respect for your teachings.

As much as we all are interested in learning other RV methodologies, the hard facts of life, namely time, money, work, still dictate whether or not that is feasible. I for one manage a Kitchen and Bath Design Studio and am responsible for generating $1000 per day (X 30 days)each and every month of the year to pay for our overhead alone. So for every day that I take off work, it costs me $1000 in addition to the cost of the workshop. That ain’t small change. So, it takes a lot of planning ahead and resources for me to take a three or five day workshop! And I am also aware of several other Guild members, including top administration, who are in a similar situation.

Also, I remember sitting in on a half a day of your first workshop and the classroom was filled with people. I recall that 7 of them were HRVGers…so I am not sure what your argument is here. The two failed attempts had nothing to do with HRVG.

It is difficult, as we have found with other RV instructors wishing to come to Hawaii to give workshops, to coordinate everyone’s time and resources to bring it all to fruition. And if the HRVG group were to rearrange their lives for every RV pro wanting to teach in Hawaii, we would have to take leaves of absence and go into major debt to accommodate everyone.

We look to the various websites and egroups for information about the other schools of RV and to have a fair exchange of ideas and knowledge. HRVG openly invites others to participate on our site and only wish to have that respect reciprocated by others.

Peace, Prudence…hope you are doing well! I look forward to the time when all the factors align themselves so I can participate in one of your workshops. Aloha, Valtra aka Mana

>

Glenn: I don’t really consider any RV methodology to be perfect. There’s something that can be learned from all approaches. I know you share this belief… and I also think you’re correct in believing that there are those on Stargate who would consider such a statement to be offensive & worthy of attack.

It *is* too bad. I think the field of RV is at a crossroads of some sort. I’m not even sure what the available choices for direction are at this point. I just hope it winds up being constructive.

Best Regards, -John Cook Hi All, Being constructive and maintaining focus are good positions to come from. There are just too many distractions and derailments within the RV community. We all know the value of focusing attention on a task and the results it brings, and too engage in activities which spread us too thin, affecting on our primary focus, only weakens the primary objective. I don’t mean to rant and rave here, but maintaining focus on the primary objective always results in solid aquisition of that objective. One has to make wise choices on how one spends his/her time. Thanks for listening—–Ed

ED

Aloha and Bravo!

Thanks for your input, I agree whole heartedly.

Banshee

>

Hi Pru!

I understand! I have lived two lives for so long that it gets very tough! I have a serious day job that pays the rent etc and a "pro bono" night avocation for service to humanity. Besides "volunteering" to co-steer HRVG, I am also a Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist and work gratis to assist those that commit to the time and effort to make positive changes in their lives.

Now that I am a Certified Instructor of HRVG Protocols, I do plan to offer classes in a different forum than that is offered here in Honolulu..that of course dictates that there is an equal exchange of time/expertise and money. I have no issues concerning charging a reasonable sum of money to allow this to happen…none of us here feel that you are asking for an unequal exchange :)! Peace, Pru.

P.S. I’d love to take your class, but I am broke :(

Alas, ditto.

grasshopper :(

P.S. I’d love to take your class, but I am broke :(

Alas, ditto. Thus are the current conditions of Hawaii.

grasshopper :(